Hamas causes suffering to Palestinian and Jew alike. If Israel’s actions in Gaza diminish that power and that suffering, then we should seriously consider that this military action may be more moral than the withdrawal from Gaza that enabled Hamas to cause the suffering.

Some say that war never solves anything. One such person was the British Labour leader George Lansbury, very popular in his time, who said, in the House of Commons on the first day of WWII:

“The cause that I and a handful of friends represent is this morning going down to ruin. But I think that we ought to take heart and courage from the fact that after two thousand years of war and strife, at least those who enter upon this colossal struggle have to admit that force has not settled and cannot settle anything.”

He was wrong. And the course of the next several years proved him wrong yet again. The Allies’ military action stopped both European fascism and Japanese imperialism. It freed Koreans, Chinese, French, Germans, Poles, and myriad others, including, of course Jews.

Not only that, but after scores of Allied attacks on civilians far more terrible than any attack that Israelis have ever made, those German, Italian and Japanese citizens and leaders who faced the attacks did not react with terrorism. After unconditionally surrendering (as the great FDR demanded) they willingly became friends of the Allies and (with the exception of the East Germans whom the Soviets controlled by military force) partners in freedom, peace and democracy.

Torah teaches that those who are kind to the cruel will be cruel to the kind. Misplaced kindness to the cruel members of Hamas has enabled Hamas to inflict cruelty on those Palestinians who want peace for themselves and Israelis.

There is a time for war and a time for peace. If Israel receives enough support in fighting this war, a war Hamas started years ago, not only will Israelis resume their peacemaking efforts, but those Palestinians who want peace will finally be free and able to reciprocate with peace.

I agree with many of you, that Israel needs to act morally at all times. I agree with you that human life is a treasure, on both sides of the border. I agree with you that no matter what the other side does, we should always live and act ethically and humanely. But do I agree with you that we should do it because it would serve us better in the long term? Not necessarily. As much as I want to hope and believe that acting morally might induce reciprocation, I have found myself disillusioned too many times… It might inspire high morals, but unfortunately it seems that never with the people in control. No. We should act and be moral because it’s the only right way to be!

Yes, I am concerned with Israel’s deterioration of ethics and morals. Yes, we should dismantle the settlements. Yes, we should work our hardest to find creative solutions to act humanely at border crossings, without risking ourselves when our kindness is taken advantage of. No, we should never use cluster bombs. We should never use our military might frivolously. We should avoid collective punishment at all cost. And above all: We should strive to continue to indoctrinate our children with love, compassion, high morals, peace, and tolerance for the other, even if on the other side of the border there is a different kind of indoctrination going on.

But (yes, there’s a but…), we are also mortals. The military imbalance doesn’t make us super human. We die when we are shot at. We are afraid when we are in danger. And yes, we are angry when we are tested beyond our human limits. And the immediate and the short term have their importance too! No one can live for “the long term”, especially if you don’t know if or when this imagined “long term” will come. And when in danger, you have to protect yourself. So, yes, I do support an Israeli response that targets the elimination of danger. Even if it’s “only” the short term danger. And even though it’s impossible to do without the terrible cost to both sides. There, I said it better this time.

I believe that Israel, with all of its failings, is still very high on the moral scale, compared to other nations in conflict. Yes, I would like it to have less failings. I would like to see it act more ethically. Even though I know that some moral ideals are impossible, especially when the other side is deliberately scheming to take advantage of them.

I can only hope and pray that this episode will end quickly and with the least amount of bloodshed on either side. That our leaders, commanders and soldiers will have the wisdom to exercise the highest morals they can in every action and decision in front of them, while still taking the least amount of risks with their own lives.

The conflict between Israel and Palastan is a very troublesome one. Peace is long overdue. When a society treats other members of society like second class citizens, there’s bound to be a push-back. This is the case of Israel and Palastine. The Palastinians are being treated like second class citizens and they are angry! I’m certainly not saying that they are innocent. Certainly, plenty of poor policies and violence has taken place on both sides.

FYI: Humas recently (right before this whole recent conflict) was willing to give Israel a portion of their land. Israel said, “no go”. We want that land AND the land stolen from Palistine. In other words, Huma’s was willing to negociate for a peaceful outsome and Israel wasn’t. Thus, the anger continues and so does the violence.

If there is anything to learn from this stituation, it is that you can not try and “kill” the enemy in hope that you will prevail. Take a look at the current Iraq situation in which our administration thought that by trying to “kill” the enemy, it will wipe out the problem. Instead, the problem has only gotten worse and we are more unsafe because of it. This will be the case with Israel. Once this conflict has calmed down, they will discover that they have only added fuel to their problem of safety. It’s amazing what killing the innocent will do to a rational person. Killing innocent people while they have no way of escaping is NEVER the answer; and I fear that Israel will soon discover the errors of their ways in this situation.

It’s time for the violence to stop. It’s time for some real negociations by both sides so that peace can finally be accmomplished.

White Jewish Americans: Living on a beautiful land (actually, it was much more beautiful before it was cruelly and horribly taken away from the Native Americans), singing “This land is your land, this land is my land…”, etc. in a true peacenick spirit (are you including the Native Americans in the “…you and me…” of your song?), living in a make-believe leftist world, where they can experience all these feelings of love and compassion for humanity, (especially for innocent people) and criticize Israel for all the bad things it does.

American Jews, living the good life, which was achievable only with the price of millions of people’s deaths and sufferings throughout the world (whether by killing natives to steal their lands, or by destroying nations for their oil and other material goods, whether by acts of war, or by acts of economic rape), feel good about their beautiful conscience when they criticize Israel for its evilness. After all, beating your own is the highest act of morality…

You can only afford that spirit because the raped Native Americans have been subdued way before your lifetime, and there is no outside force (like Iran, Russia, or whoever) that keeps fueling them with weapons and propaganda…

But what if Native Americans were living in densely populated reservations, shelling rockets daily on your towns, homes, kindergartens, schools, hospitals, synagogues? What if they cowerdly used their own mothers and babies as human shield against retaliation? what if their deadly weapons were to traumatize your 2 year olds, your 5 year olds, your 10 year olds? what if you could not sleep at night or lead normal lives?
I am sure that in that same peacenick spirit of yours, you would have risen up and pleaded with the American government and army: Please do not harm these innocent people anymore! they have suffered enough!! Better we suffer now! Better we let them play Russian Roulette with our lives and our babies’ lives! or better yet, let’s all wash ourselves into the Atlantic and the Pacific, so they don’t have to do the dirty work! Please let them have their beloved country back!!! After all, we have no right to be here!!

Oh, how lucky you are that this is not the case… I am sure you will discount everything I say, as good Jews know how to do. I am sure you will not be able to actually imagine a terrible scenario such as I suggest above. And why should you? You will never have to live under such a threat.

Go ahead. Bash Israel. Power to you.

However, the Palestinians’ intractability and stupidity never disappoints, so having watched this spiral, I’ve reached the point where I actually agree with Bush’s moral simplicity on this issue: Hamas brought this upon themselves. They begged for this because they love playing the victim.

If I lived in a country where missiles were being lobbed at me–3000+– I’d ask my government to do something about it. Nothing but what’s happening now could possibly cause the missiles to stop. Might it not work? Yes. But Israel was left with no other choice.

The Israelis have been far more patient than they needed to be and far more patient than any other country would be.

I have little sympathy for the Gazans: they voted for these missile lobbing imbeciles who want only to destroy Israel. They are getting what they voted for now.

What the hell every happened to moral clarity? We bombed the crap out of the Germans in WW II and dropped two A-bombs on Japan producing terrible human suffering, but most Americans have no regrets: they started it and we ended it.

Perhaps a “proportional” response would be for Israel to lob missiles back into Gaza without regard to where they land and who they kill? That’s the Hamas playbook. Would that satisfy the hand-wringers?

That’s how I feel now. I’m fed up with whimpering liberal/progressives (and I’m one) who reflexively side with the weak even when the weak is wrong.

I know you live in Israel and I do think that gives your words more power and weight. I’m sitting here in Philadelphia with not much on the line.

I think unilateral withdrawal was a big mistake. Yes, easy to say in retrospect; I was also hopeful at the time. But we fell into Hamas’ trap. In retrospect Israel should have

a. evacuated the settlers but not withdrawn the army.
or
b. tried harder to come to a deal with Fatah so that Fatah could claim victory and have some more credibility with its people by having delivered something. That “victory” would also give them more responsibility. As good as Abbas looks now, Sharon was rejecting him as a partner back then.

Okay that’s ancient history.

Some more recent lessons. Now that we know Hamas can hit Be’er Sheva and other places further than before… we now know that Hamas was restraining itself when it wasn’t being shot at.

Israel keeps setting the standard too high and each time the results are that a previous standard of security will never be reached again.

It is a choice to live in Sderot. One need not live there. Maybe this isn’t the strongest version of the Zionist dream, where one can’t live anywhere in Israel and feel equally safe as any other place.

But the IDF killing civilians makes Israel less safe in my opinion, by creating the lesson plans for young Gazan’s about the righteousness of their cause and the viciousness of their enemy.

It’s also morally wrong in ways that damage the soul of Israel.

That’s all that is in me for now. I’m glad you wrote here.

I am against war unless it is, truly, in self defense. I was against Vietnam, Korea, intervention in Central America, and was out portesting the war in Iraq well before USA launched invasion.

Yet I see Israel’s action as truly, in self-defense.

I cannot ask my fellow Jews in Israel to practice peace when it is their lives, and the lives of their loved ones, who are continually threatened and killed by Hamas and their fundamentalist brethren.

Gaza is not Iraq and Israel is not the USA. Hamas has stated its continual war with Israel from the beginning; their objective is to kill every Jew in Palestine, a geographic region that inlcudes the everything that is now Israel and Palestine. Why is it that liberal American Jews refuse to judge Hamas and Islamic fundamentalists by their murderous actions, and their unambiguous words?

I am against the Israeli settlements and was against cluster bombs and civilian bombings in Lebanon last time. This is different.

In the security of our American homes, we speak of peace, as though Hamas has EVER expressed an interest in peace for any stated objective beyond. I lived in Lower Manhattan through sept 11; I have read what the Islamic fundamentalists want. It has nothing to do with peace.

Many ask of how this will end: my hope is that Hamas will be defeated militarily, will lose the power to suppress and intimidate the many Palestinians who do, through the Palestinian Authority, truly support a lasting peace with Israel.

1st Rabbi Michael Lerner has some good things to say.

http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/rdpulpit/919/rdpulpit%3A_israel_in_gaza%3A_right_but_not_smart/?page=1

Next, a necessary rebuttal on a New York Times position.

http://www.creative-i.info/?p=3421

And some background (proper journalism) on why Hamas controls Gaza today.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804?currentPage=1

Lastly an interesting analysis provided by another blog reader:

As I recall,

didn’t Israel back Hamas to displace the PLO, another organization they once supported? Well they murdered Arafat and got their wish and now that wish has become the problem, perhaps a bigger problem than the latter. Blunder or not, that is the question. And as you point out there are some who see it moreso as an opportunity. As long as Israel has the power to decide who should or shouldn’t be allowed to govern Palistinian affairs, then those who say there is no solution for peace are correct. It is also obvious that Israel, at least for the most part does not want it any other way. Also I’d further add that all of us have been collectively punked right along with the Israeli citizenship and the Palestinians. As long as the business of politics, or should I say the politics of business dictates US foreign policy, there will never be a peace for Israel or anybody else, including ourselves.

Who is benefitting the most by this conflict? I’d say defense contractors and oil corporations. Which brings up another question. As long as US foreign oil dependence is intact, Israel’s strategic importance remains paramount. But if that importance continues to dimish it makes one wonder how long the United States will keep sending hundreds of millions in aid to prop up Israel? Perhaps the real reason lies behind the US military. Israel is a destabalizing factor in the Middle East and we don’t build more weapons than the rest of the world combined for nothing. As long as Israel is a strategic lynchpin there will be a need for continued extravagant defense spending. Once that need is gone, other issues must be invented like the missile defense shield that poses for another cold war in the making.

The bottom line is the Palistinians(and the Jewish and American taxpayers) are being used as pawns in a crap shoot by influences who gain and maintain their political power by insuring the chaos. Collective punishment of the Palistinians guarantees outside influence by all the major players, from the Iyatollahs’ right down to US defense contractors and Saudi oilmen. The Palestinians, like us are the victims and they are helpless victims without recourse. They know as no doubt everyone else does that if they threw out Hamas as Israel wants, nothing would change. Israel would insist on yet another radical group they think will play ball with them. The illegal settlements would continue as planned. How much food, blankets, electricity and medicine they receive would be dictated by Israel and the rest of the western world won’t raise a finger beyond a verbal protest to stop it.

I think the solution beyond removing our own dependence from foreign oil, lies in giving Israel some tough love which would include not sending them weapons until they decide to pull out of the occupied territories. At the same time the rest of the world must take action to ensure Palestine is not only protected from it’s enemies, but be given autonomy along with the right to govern themselves and chose their own political leaders. If the UN could so easily march in and give Israel it’s own country and autonomy, then why can’t it do the same for the Palestinians? Well I think we know the answer.

by Michael Shaw (8 articles, 1 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 361 comments) on Saturday, January 3, 2009 at 6:57:36 AM

Hope some of this proves illuminating.

All the best and Happy New Year.

R.